Wednesday, March 18, 2009

Visceral Outrage

Sometimes a subject matter insinuates itself into my psyche like a stealth mission. It is not a case of focused attention on a particular subject to achieve a specific task or goal . It seems to me the back channel of my brain is accepting and tabulating data without me giving it much front of the brain recognition.

Often the results of the data load shows up on my awareness scanners when I am sleeping. Sometimes I have what is not really a dream, but a memory replayed which, in some way, illustrates what the back channel is processing. Last night I had a busy brain. I got up around 3 am because the processors did an urgent data transfer to the front brain. So instantly I was awake and somehow still watching the memory movie:

When we lived in SW Florida, Mermaid and I would get up early to watch the beach turn from night to day. We did this often as it was a day starter we both loved. We never played hookey, no matter how wonderful the beach experience, or the mom and daughter experience. We always honored our commitments to school and business. We were often tempted to make the wrong choice but one or the other of us would say with a sigh, " it is never hard to know what is the right choice, it is always the hardest". So we would head homeward to shower, dress, and go forth to accomplish something good.

One early morning at the beach, we were at waters edge exploring what the out going tide had left behind. There were sand dollars, something we did not encounter all that often. In fact, I cannot remember another day when there were so many. Mermaid was about 7, rushing around enthusiastically yelling out each new find. Somewhere in the finding, Mermaid determined she would like to find a sand dollar for every single one of her classmates and her teacher. Her ever generous spirit of giving and sharing enticed this Mamafish to help her accomplish the goal so I was less aware than usual about others on the beach.

Two young men were maybe a hundred yards up the beach. Apparently our postures and enthusiasm telegraphed the message there was something good on the beach and they changed course toward us to see what our excitement was about.

As they got closer I noticed they were holding hands and were being demonstrative with one another. Obviously two young lovers enjoying the morning beach. Both were nearly naked, minimally covered in very abbreviated micro speedos. Really micro, to the point I wondered how they could in fact, pack their equiment in such small confines. None of my business, but I did wish for more fabric to the speedos and perhaps a bit less touchy feely activity.
For a moment I thought they would move on down the beach and explore the waterline there but they headed directly toward Mermaid and called out to engage her in conversation. Mermaid, excitedly called back there were sand dollars!

Like most beachcombers, our postures had been bent with our eyes focused on the treasures in the sand. But as the couple arrived to our location, Mermaid stood with sand dollar in hand to show the treasure to the pair. My chatty daughter stopped in mid sentence, her hands fell to her sides and her smile faded away. Mermaid was tiny, in the 3rd percentile for height and weight for her age group. Which means 97% of all 7 year olds were taller. So when she stood and turned to converse with the boys, her straight ahead gaze was eye level to one of the speedos. That particular speedo was patterned as snakeskin with a rhinestone snakehead at front center bulge with a forked red tongue protruding.

There was a pause, then Mermaid shifted her gaze to the mans eyes and quietly
said, "I don't think little children should see this", then turned and started running up the beach. I was gathering my wits and turning to follow my child when Snakeman hissed out, "You should do something about that rude little C**t you spawned".

Had it been within my skill set, I would have killed Snakeman then and there.

My absolute outrage was so visceral I felt ill. I continued on a few more steps , took a deep breath and struggled with the consuming wrath I was experiencing when Snakeman ran past me toward Mermaid spewing filth out of his mouth.
I am not an athlete, never have been, but fueled with adrenalin I ran past Snakeman, caught up with Mermaid , scooped her up into my arms and fled the beach. We lost most of the sand dollars in our rush to abandon the beach.

Later that morning I was still engaged in a personal struggle to rid myself of the ill feeling from the beach confrontation. It took time for me to sort through my reactions before I finally arrived at my sticking point:
When, did people stop doing the right thing?

So, that morning at the beach was playing in my head this morning around 3am.

What, I asked myself, made me think about this long ago experience? I went outside in the cool night air to find clear skies, a bright moon, stars galore. I sat quietly and tried to discern what was I feeling? The answer came to me. I felt much as I had on that long ago beach morning. Sheer visceral outrage.

I am ill with the recognition that, unlike that isolated incident of the past, now,
right now in this country, it is currently
the norm to not do the right thing!
We are run amuck with lies, greed, graft, diversion, misdirection,doublespeak and a despairing level of worshiping and enacting self interest above all other things.

How did this happen to us? All of us. When did this become acceptable? How did this become acceptable? How did we let evil prevail over good? While I perceive extreme threat for the country I've loved my entire life, I cannot scoop her up and charge up the beach to safety.

There are some who have vetoed alarm over our changing America as just more politics as usual. One party rising, the other party declining and the typical transitional grousing. But this is so much more than a change in the White House. America is changed. Probably forever.

The problem is greater than a staggering debt, greater than bailouts, greater than stimulus/spending, greater than economics, greater than stem cells or infanticide, greater than tax evading "leaders", greater than lousy appointees, greater than illegal immigrants, greater than Fannie or Freddie, greater than job losses, greater than trade deficits, greater than trade agreements, greater than health care availability, greater than guaranteed retirements for unionists while the rest of us lose everything, greater than energy , greater than emissions, greater than the debacles with AIG or GM or Citi or Madoff or any of the other duplicitous thieves in or out of government.

Now, now, now , right damn NOW we are a nation of people who have not just abandoned the idea of doing the "right" thing. Tragically, we have enlarged on that unconscionable transgression to shrugging off government sanctioned policies to reward really bad and extremely vicious behaviors and viciously punishing reliable, responsible, good behaviors.


boneman said...

good thing I wasn't there or there would have been a dead body on the beach that day.
Sadly, probably mine.
You gals would have escaped easily, but, that isn't the statement, is it?

Where have the days gone that folks could walk the beach in peace, enjoy life...LIFE, and not have to worry about hell walking up to us in such brazen errogance?
(it looks like it's spelled wrong...I think not)

I have no answers.
Sometimes I try to dig up answers, defend the thing happenning, but, the older I get, the less tolerant I become.

I have in, I have nothing of value. And yet, I do all I can to bring Sunshine to others as best as I can...sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I fail sadly.
Moxnix (and Foam says I can spell it like that if I want)
I think that, somehow, if I keep trying to help others (a gig too many people have left behind) that eventually others will see my hapless attempts and will also put in a try.
If enough of us are helping each other, jerks like mr.snakepants become smaller, and so do their deeds.

The hardest part is to see past their ignorance, and (please don't hate me for this next) forgive them, something that truly takes work and serious concentration, believe me.
I'm a Walking on Alligators kind'a guy. Speak first, think about it later. Usually this will get me neck deep into some stink.
This time, however, I am speaking from a solid foundation. One that cannot be denied.

Do not go to the beach alone. Take as many as will go with you.
I'm sorry, but, now-a-days, if you go alone? You're just advertising for trouble. Connect with Jean, who lives nearer the East side of the state, or Lil Lamb who (I think is more South. Jean also knows of friends on the West side of the state.

sparringK9 said...

at my favorite lunchtime taqueria today we had a similar conversation. as we watch the senate hearing on AIG those of us regulars at the counter discussed the absence of SHAME> my question is, who rolls with these bad guys? who goes to dinner with bonny fwank? Who rolls with men who bankrupted companies and asked the american taxpayers to bear the burden of their risks while they live like kings? are the welcome at the country club? on the gold course? i wondered the same thing about OJ after he skated from his murder trial.

one guy said he was up at a big resort lake in north georgia where OJ and family happened to be dining. and he told of how obsequious everyone was -wanting his autograph, etc. this was after he killed nicole.

anyway, the bartender said : "fame before shame" and thats where were at in "merica.

im afraid you are right but im not giving up. today i wrote all my senators and congressman regarding HB 475 and 875. steel yourself: its the beginning of the control of food. including home gardens. wanna take a guess who submitted the bill? the congresswoman wife of a Monsanto exec. by the way, big ag was big contributors to king obaaama. i guess they'll be calling in their chits.

you are correct in identifying the beginning of tyranny. our fore fathers are spinning and weeping in their graves.

on the beach event - im speechless (which is rare)

sparringK9 said...

sorry for all the typos. i cant type

h said...

Brilliant post. And BIG. Taking a small bite at the theme, I'd say this:

There IS a moral link between Christianity, Capitalism and Constitutional Governance and those 3 things ARE the foundations of the American Experiment.

The current assault against Capitalism has it's roots in the decades-long successful assault on Christianity. The coming, and it is coming, assault against Constitutional Governance and the Rule-of-Law will have it's roots in the increasingly successful attacks against Capitalism. All are linked.

The folks who ignored the assaults on Christianity while being religious in their belief in an iron strength inherent in a Capitalism that didn't need Christianity's support have been PROVEN WRONG by recent events.

The folks who say NOW that Constitutional Governance has an inherent iron strength that doesn't need the support of Capitalism will be PROVEN WRONG.

All 3 are linked. Inter-dependent.

fishy said...

The long ago beach threat to Mermaid was the begining of my recognition of some people choosing to brazenly not do the right thing. Which is my personal foundation, I suppose, of recognizing now that Not doing the right thing is the new norm and this horrifying mindset is stealing my country!

yes, yes, yes! This is the biggest threat our country has ever faced and we are desperate for stand up warriors like you! Bring on that "feisty" side the summit bloggers all mentioned! :-)

about the ps) is it really possible for your bark to be silenced?

I so agree with you!

I usually write about things from the single experience point of view and bring it to the big picture, ie what happens to us individually adds to the collective whole.
I think you often write from the big picture point of view as an easily digestible summary.

I am afraid your assessment of BIG is accurate.

It was absolutely the individual and unshakeable faith of millions of faithful that declined to recognize they were under attack by a mighty foe. Most even scoffed at and rejected the idea as being foolish.

And you are correct again, there are those who so absolutely believe in Capitalism they cannot
accept the current status as being anything other than temporary . They too are foolishy rejecting the reality which is;
all they believe in and all they hold dear is being blatently stolen from them in digital surround sound!

And again you are correct in stating the survival of constitutional governance is dependent on the strength of and adherence to moral principals, as well as maintaining freedom of individual pursuits (capitalism).

How can we broadcast the TRUTH of what is happening to a
shocked, frightened and despairing public? What does it take to stop complacency and denial of this magnitude?

h said...


I believe the key to having more people understand the path we're on begins with having them understand the damage done to the FIRST pillar, Christianity.

And I do mean Christianity specifically, not just "moral principles". Islam, Judiasm, Buddhism, and other religions have "moral principles". So did Marxism and Hitler's National Socialism.

All of those isms clash to some extent with the other pillars of Capitalism and Constitutional Governance. While the uniquely American version of Christianity embraced the other Pillars in a way never before or since seen. THAT is American exceptionalism.

We must acknowledge that Christianity is one of our Pillars.
We must communicate the fact that the American Exceptionalism version of Christianity is not hateful towards the 18% and growing number of Americans who don't self-identify as Christian. There were Jews in this Christian Nation at it's founding. They were treated better here than any place they'd ever lived since Biblical Times.

To answer your question, probably the BEST thing that could happen would be for a NON-CHRISTIAN Scholar to lay-out the reasons why we must reclaim America as a specifically Christian Nation.

I am encouraged and a little surprised by the passion a good portion of America is showing for Capitalism these days as it's under assault. Perhaps because the Obamanation attacks have been sudden and huge.

But even if that passion grows mightily, it won't be enough. Ayn Rand can fly off the shelves! Generation Yo! punks can grow a spine and rebel against the lefty dogma they've been force-fed in the Government Schools their whole lives. It won't be enough.

We need ALL 3 pillars.

Here's the deal and here's what a lot of cons don't understand. If we lose the Christian Pillar we WILL NOT slowly turn into a huge secular Sweden. We're NOT Sweden!

Secularism and Near Socialism work reasonably well in Sweden and their Government is not and has never has been harshly authoritarian. Swedes have a lot of the same personal liberties we do. If you count smoking dope and being naked as liberties, perhaps more.

But we are NOT headed towards "European Style Socialism" as is the current refrain from Republican congressweasels.

It will NOT work nearly as WELL here.

Sweden has a communal tradition that goes back 13,000 years. About 99% of Sweden's population was BORN in Sweden. About 99% are Caucasians. About 97% are in just two ethnic groups and I'll be damned if I can tell them apart. Sweden isn't a military super-power.


We will be MUCH MUCH worse! But by embracing ALL THREE PIllARS we can again be MUCH MUCH Better.

boneman said...

Well, I'll be.
Such nonsense spoken by the child, troll, has no basis in reality, and is the very reason our country got in trouble in the first place.
And the world followed after us because of more lies.

The idea that there can be profit for nothing is Capitalism.
Let me use words that the child may understand, because I know his venomous spit will follow shortly.

Buy low, sell high. That's what capitalism is.

What a crock.
So many people getting money for doing nothing other than 'holding the money' is what has brought our great nation, and the world following it, into the abyss it sits in now.
Folks from Florida don't understand that as well as folks from Michigan, of course, but, y'all do have a flavor of it down there. There are some scared folks down there who know they have made a bungle of it. Paid for what some shyster told them would be a good deal, but, nothing changed.
Just as Maddoff ran out of money (if he hadn't, he'de still be at it, now) and his 'empire' crumbled, so too is our own nation falling.
We have the power to stop it, with work.
But caitalism and Christianity?
More horse feathers.
The precept of Christianity can be poked into the two great laws, indeed. Help others as best as you can, and love the creation with all your heart, mind, and soul. It goes without saying that DO NOT LIE is encompassed within the help others, though perhaps some think not.
But capitalism has no chance of survival at all if one takes to heart do not lie (false witness) because it is not true that Ford is better than Chevy, or that product made in the USA is far superior to product made in other countries.

As for the "iron strength" gosh, the young one has lost his way, again, and it doesn't surprise me.
His own man, Bush junior made an IRON killing in the war stock he owns, and ever so happy about how the wars he started are turning out. Cheney isn't much better, owning the Halliburton stock that now rakes in money hand over fist (would that be iron fist?) from the death and destruction the two engineered and are now profitting from.
That isn't what capitalism was supposed to be about.

No, the American experiment was a brave try by our forefathers to establish a nation free of force from the government OR business OR religion. And, until very recently, wasn't doing too badly.
That was before some righteous indignation over people with differing ideas came to light.
Oh the nerve of women wanting the vote! Surely this will be the downfall! It states plainly in the bible that they should hold their own place.
Oh the nerve of those black people, wanting rights. Wanting votes. WHITE votes. Plainly in the bible...not supposed to happen.

but, somehow, those men realized some two hundred plus years ago that two things must occur for our freedom to be real.
#1 Law must be established to guard us all.
#2 Law must be changeable, else they're only tossing the yoke of tyranny on us from the past.

OK, too many words...too far.
I knew the incident happened long ago because Mermaid (if I may be permitted to use that name) but, it doesn't change my earlier statement.

Helping others, forgiving others, that's the only way that the CREATOR wanted us to be.
For example, and, for this I will offer up any amount of space in my comments for debate) ....
the child troll has used worse language in his rants against many folks on the net, in comment boxes all over the place.

And yet, most of us have decided to forgive him his sin against us.
In most places, his words were deleted.

Now, one last bit...
I worked hard at staying on topic when I first replied.
Didn't do bad, either.
Hadn't noticed the tags you used, but, the second time (this time) I did.

Governemt has nothing to do with mr.snakepants. Capitalism has nothing to do with him, either. Setting up a US form of taliban definately DOES have something to do with it, but, fact is, a bad tree cannot make good fruit.

I'll go post a cow at my site, now.
Feel free to find something, anything to rebuke me with. I always look forward to learning.

boneman said...

more of the same?

fishy said...

you are correct a bad tree rarely produces good fruit.

I do not hold Snakeman accountable for government decisions. I did use Snakeman as an example of My first awareness of a huge cultural change. Ie...was that the begining of what we are experiencing now? The greater question is where was the tipping point of America losing her way.

I read Troll's response as saying we must first acknowledge our foundations are crumbling before we can plan and schedule a renovation. If we are not aware of the weakened status of the pillars, then we will be crushed in the collapse. You seem to be saying to replace the original pillars with those of newer origins will be just fine.

I believe if we do not have common beliefs in what is right , wrong, good, bad then we are already crushed. Simply put the old creed of " do unto others as you would have others do unto you" was a better place to live than the current " screw unto others all you can ...

boneman said...

well, how can I say...
President Truman cut his own lawn when he left office.
Of course, President Eisenhower would have, save his heart problem. President Kennedy, well...never left office. Persident Johnson didn't do his own lawn before he was president.
President Nixon, however chose to rake in money (two million for his first post office speech) and President Ford did, also, though if i understand it correctly, he donated tons of money to his wife's hospital. President Carter tried his best to put a moral edge on us, and it migt have worked save for President Kennedy's getting the Shah of Iran into power. The White Revolution was a strange also attempted to put a moral edge on the government.
Of course, President Carter has done more to the cause of the homeless, and with his own two hands, and for that, I will be a fan of his forever.
Sadly, President Reagan bragged about his social security check...his statement of it being his moral right as a taxpaying American might be where troll gets his impetus. Same with President Bush, senior.
And that other clown, President Clinton.
Bush junior came out of office writing his memoirs and eye twinkling at money.
So, right off, i have little respect for the greed he shows.
But, moral fabric...if it was lost, was somewhere between VP Nixon propping up President Eisehower (who warned us against the industrial weapons companies) and President Kennedy.

Or was it?

I stand as an unusual christian because I envision a CREATOR so great we cannot even think OF that being. In fact, the statement God is Love is more to the way I think.
Not he or her (my ex-sis in law can go hours explaining how women were the creators...)

If the way was lost, it is the folks who call themselves religious leaders who are leading us away from the way we're supposed to be.

I may have over-reacted seeing troll's comment here (that second one he had in before i was done with the long, dragged out piece.

But, it gets down to EACH of us.
You, him, me.
If we follow the words of others like sheep, that's when we doom ourselves. I didn't see where he(mr.snakepants) even reflected the cultural change at all.
I grew up in the South. Four bathrooms always looked odd. It wasn't right in the fifties.
It was worse in the sisties. And while the 1960's were bad, I'm speaking of the 1860s.
We were losing then, too.
It took a great Republican to see that and make his attempt at pulling our nation together.
(dang it! I'm going political, again, and I really don't want to)

It wasn't up to President Lincoln to do the work. It wasn't up to President Carter, either.
President Obama has one heck of a job in front of him, and I only hope he dopesn't try to combine religion in with government.
It will only hurt us.

We, each of us, are charged with being the best we can be.
From the CREATOR'S own hand to some folk's way of thinking, but if that being is too grand, then it still comes down to each of us.

I do speak 'scrambled' sometimes, eh?
But, even though I knew it was long ago, the point was, as a child then or an old man now, I would have stood the ground.
It would have been the right thing to do.
(boneman, shut up....)


Jenny said...


Anonymous said...

you know, Boxer is right.
I apologize.

it's your blog, your opinion.
I sure am not in charge of changing it, and I know why I'm overly animated about it.

How about, go ahead and delete all the comments I made, and we'll forget I said anything.

I'll even leave a small joke.

You remember what I said about President Jefferson smoking pot?

Well, now you know why there were so many scratch off words in the documents he wrote.

(just a little joke...)


sparringK9 said...

an art analogy:

capitalism: is me thinking something up; making it and taking it to the free market. i set the price based on my evaluation of materials and effort and my personal sense of its "goodness". if the "market" accepts that i have something worthy, it will sell. if not, then no and its back to the drawing board. literally.

socialism: is me filling out a zillion pieces of paper in order to get a government grant to produce art that nobody wants which is funded by taxpayers by implied violent force.

sparringK9 said...

i know this post isnt about capitalism but since boney brought it up i addressed it.

another analogy:

Madoff is to capitalism as Jim Jones was to Christianity.

you cannot throw away a system that allows the greatest economic freedom for the greatest amount of people by pointing to amoral practitioners.

Anonymous said...


Not sure what section of that psychotic off-topic diatribe you want me to refute.
So, I'll take the least inane statement:

"President Truman cut his own lawn when he left office.
Of course, President Eisenhower would have, save his heart problem."

You have no way to know what Eisenhower WOULD HAVE done. Consider yourself refuted.

But hey, thanks for realizing the importance of former President's landscaping choices and their bearing on today's situation.

Troll The Bone-Head Crusher!

fishy said...

I cannot begin to verbalize what I think about the obamanists not doing anything about our multi million dollars being gifted to the swines at AIG, Fannie, Freddie, Citi as "contractual" bonuses while imperiously declaring to Mark Sanford stimulus monies to South Carolina cannot be used to pay down the state's existing debts.

Their reasoning is paying down debts is not the purpose assigned to the funds. Is it purposeful to assign the sums to bonuses to the greedy who were major players in this havoc? Has all reason fled this nation?

How exactly do they rationalize their so called agreements and logic to again REWARD failure and PUNISH responsible choices?


boneman said...

and what gets me is the guy really believes what he says, little realizing that that is the second time he's done that.
I guess some people think those president guys are from fantasy land, they come here withut touching anything or anybody.

Not only would the General have cut his own lawn, Mrs. Mamia would've slapped him up back the head if he hadn't!
She made the bestest cookies!

But, then, that's what happens. Only right now, I am strong in that it doesn't go to the topic.
Course, now you've taken a turn in that direction, too.
Well, as it turns out, I dunno.

I didn't think they should pay anymore than they paid for the horse and buggy industry.
But, what then?
Let all those workers go?
or....let all the banks fail?
What happens when banks fail?

I'm seeing where there may bae a few who GET a bonus, but, from what I hear, it might be taxed at 100%.
That's OK by me. Tax 'em till their $500 suits don't fit.
Lord knows, that's more than I netted all last year.
I remember, now!

She used to put dates in the oatmeal raisin cookies!
They were good.

moi said...

Word to K9. And, I would go even further to say that Capitalism is the only moral form of economics in existence because it relies solely – explicitly and implicitly – on the willing exchange between two or more parties of one value or set of values for another. There is no force in Capitalism. It has to be a willing exchange or it falls apart.

What we have today - what we've had for oh, I dunno, about 200 freakin' years – isn't Capitalism. It's state controlled economics and it's finally growed up enough to turn around and bite us in the ass.

It's our government, folks. It belongs to us and only we can take it back. How far we're willing to go to do so is another matter.

Kymical Reactions said...


I feel sad. I think sometimes people don't care about doing what is right, but they are also oblivious to 'what is right'. They are so caught up in their own worlds that if anyone else should disagree from their point of view, then those who disagree are the ones who are in the wrong. Does that make any sense? I am having a hard time getting my words out today.

I also think that some people who do these wrong things do it out of habit. I'm very sad that you and little mermaid had to be subjected to such vulgar comments.

I often question the nerve of people's actions. It baffles me to no end.

Jenny said...

I *sighed* because I didn't want your comments to become as difficult as the story you told in your post - that people seem to have lost manners, morals, and the ability to conduct themselves as HUMANS. Everyone wants to find blame and I want that energy spent in fixing what's wrong in this country/world. Today, with what our government has done, the vultures, the greed of AIG, EVERYTHING is making me sick. And then our President makes an appearance on late night TV????

K9's comment on Capitalism vs. Socialism is brilliant, your post was brilliant. Keep writing Fishy.

fishy said...

Moi, Boxer, kmwthay,

Wow! Quite the roller coaster in our country the past few days. My "progress" in trying to put all this in perspective so I can sleep past 3am.,,

In the original post, my "visceral outrage" came from a singular ugly incident born from an individual who put "self" above all other things.

we are awash in horrific behaviors and decisions so frequently we are bombarded to the point we are in shock. And one overarching tragedy of this horror we are enduring ... this IS the new "normal".

America is under attack. I hate saying that, but it is clearly true. All of us "good" people need to take action so evil will not prevail. But like Moi has said, we need to figure how .

And I agree with you Boxer about the capitalism clarity of K9 and Moi.

Pam said...

Excellent posting. But I hope it didn't put dent in your mornings at the beach. Also, if you think about it, the ability to let kids out to play on their own has gone as well ... never know what snakemen will be out there. So sad.

sparringK9 said...

fishy, you HAVE to see the video up at sparringk9. you. will. love. it.

Anonymous said...

Heh...whar to start?

Right on Sugar Pie!

Troll-man makes a key point that
Our forefathers also made: freedom --
Including ecnomic freedom--can only be
Maintained by a moral self regulatin'
Peoplem. It ain't no mystery why we's sinkin
It is the natural result of tossin' aside
The Christian ideals and imperatives.

Iffin folks can make up their own morality
Then they make it to advance jes' their own thang

Anonymous said...

Fishy, doan despair---we's gonna
Kick this passel of thugs out...

fishy said...

Hey Aunty, glad to see you are not mixin your Southern speech up with a Frenchy accent!

Hope youse havin a good time over the Pond, spect it's right difficult to not speak out on behalf of Americans. A friend of ours recently returned from a business trip across G8 Euros and reports there is Euro rage against America cause we "did this" to the world economy. Maybe those enraged Euros should not have donated so many millions to the Obamanation juggernaut.They need some mirrors.

Yep, the Troll makes some good points, don't know if I agree with him 100% on the limits to christianity only. I think there are non-christian groups who adhere to common denominator moral principals too.

There is no question the founders and framers UNDERSTOOD the absolute need for common denominator MORAL principals else freedom/ individual pursuits, open government/ capitalism... could not work. There is no question this concept has been run out of Washington but NOT,
I pray,
out of the hearts of most Americans.

Do you walk down the streets singing about loving Paris in the Springtime?

Jenny said...

"I think there are non-christian groups who adhere to common denominator moral principals too"


moi said...

Double YES!!! Morality has nothing to do with religion. At present, we are fearful of making moral judgments and that fear is rendering us incapable of taking righteous action in any number of areas in our lives, most specifically against our corrupt government.

But where did that fear come from? I think it's rooted in our natural fear of anything too extreme, i.e. FUNDAMENTAL. Because most humans are basically conservative, which to me is just another way of saying skeptical. But fundamental religious movements, whether Christian, Islamic, Judaic, or New Age, have co-opted conservatism, removed its (healthy) component of skepticism, and boiled it down to a fascist base.

But while moderates rightly shy away from fundamentalism, they are nonetheless left without moral guidance. Which means they are free to indulge whatever unguided impulse they may have towards pushing a "common good." In other words, preoccupying themselves with issues that seem to have a moral base, but which really don't.

Like health care. We should all have health care, because it's a moral imperative that we remain healthy. Right? Oh, and let's not forget education! We all have a right to an education! And a house! A car! And on and on. By focusing on these issues, we get to APPEAR moral, without having to do any heavy intellectual lifting. Because, in actuality, forcing your fellow human beings to take an arbitrary action (i.e. an action not rooted in a basic civil right) for the "good" of an individual or society at large, is actually IMMORAL.

What we currently lack, however, are true blue thinkers to tell us why this is so, philosophers who, religious or not, are primarily concerned with guiding human beings towards discovering the tools that will allow them to lead moral lives, i.e. lives of happiness and productivity that don't infringe on the rights of others to do the same.

It's just not that difficult. The Greeks did it. So did the early Christians. So did Thomas Aquinas, Isaac Newton, Descartes, Spinoza, Jefferson, Paine, and, most recently, Ron Paul, Andrew Sullivan, and any number of conservative thinkers who see right and wrong not as tools of power and control, but of freedom.

fishy said...

Whooo-Hooo! to Boxer and Moi !

I so agree with you both, morality and religion are NOT the same. Relgion in this country is a free choice activity, a common belief system/ common moral code is a necessary "pillar" of constitutional governance. Without which, America will fall.

I think Moi is right in asserting , "fear is rendering us incapable of taking righteous action .... against our corrupt government."

Another great Moi point is the appearance of a "moral based" action is not necessarily so even if you shroud it in a "common good" label.

As for "true blue" thinkers/philosophers ... it is all of us and we need to be shouting!

William J. Bennett said,
"The American people have been too quiescent and too accepting about what has been inflicted on them from the upper strata of society and the permanent political establishment in Washington. Too often, they elected to sit on the sidelines."

That quote is from 1994, some 15 years ago and OMG have we ever been too quiescent!
Our form of government was never meant to be populated by entrenched Washingtonian demagogues
who stayed there a lifetime!
They, more than any other source, have hijacked our country.

I still believe in "We the People"
and I definitely believe it will be up to " We the People" to take back our country which means all of us need to become pro active and cease being " quiescent and accepting".

The leaders we are looking for is all of us.